Discussion:
Early SCA views of medieval clothing
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Cynthia Virtue
2005-09-03 18:52:41 UTC
Permalink
Hi Rialto,

You may remember a few months back that I was in pursuit of a legendary
statement about how ugly real medieval clothes were. Mistress Dorothea
gave me some leads, and the East Kingdom Historian was kind enough to
give me a copy of:

"A Handbook of the Current Middle Ages" 1968, for Baycon -- this was the
only demo at that time.

Some excerpts from the clothing section:

Please note that my tailoring instructions are not completely authentic.
If this offends you, there are many texts available for more accurate
patterns. A truly authentic dress is likely to appear clumsy to the
modern eye.

Old bedspreads, especially the sort with scalloped edges, frequently
make fine dresses. The ones with scalloped edges make hemming
unnecessary and so save time in sewing.

Knit fabrics hang nicely in dresses,but tend to lose their shapes in
banners.
**********************

Now, please note that one of the areas which has seen a HUGE amount of
research in the past dozen years of the SCA has been in clothing. I'm
not trying to make rude fun of the writer, or the early SCA folks here,
but it is interesting to see what was advised in those early days.
Whatever the method, the pictures I've seen from those times (mostly
courtesy of the West Kingdom History Project website) are charming and
medieval-looking.

As far as I know, there were not any "texts available for more accurate
patterns" despite what the writer had said -- at least, not by our 21st
century standards. The amazing detail in the Museum of London books
only came out some dozen years ago, propagated by devoted folks like
Mistress Tangwystl (Heather Rose Jones) and with it, an astonishing
realization by the archeological community that there were re-enactment
hobbyists who might want to buy their journals.

And then hobbyists draping fabric and trying to figure out the fabric
tech of the Middle Ages -- not assuming that a set-in sleeve was of
course what you did for a tunic, and so on. (Note that the writer of
this section does say that darts and set-in sleeves are "recent"
inventions, but the included patterns include them anyway.)

A last detail: the writer calls a sideless surcoat a "cotehardie."
These days, that's what we call the fitted gown which goes under a
woman's sideless surcoat, unless we're being really precise, and then we
clothing-wonks call it a Gothic Fitted Dress.
<http://www.netherton.net/robin/> (There was another site with
pictures, but it's offline at the moment.)

Footnote for non-clothing folks: a set-in sleeve is the sort you'll see
on almost any modern shirt or blouse. A dart is a sewn-down pointy
pleat which shapes fabric over a bumpy part, such as the bosom.
--
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent

Yet the best-known, most often referenced extant [medieval] garments we
have *don't* have flat, pointy gore tops. When I do slide lectures on
the Herjolfsnes garments, I frequently point out the flat-topped gores.
-- Robin Netherton
Margaret N
2005-09-05 02:26:35 UTC
Permalink
Eerie - this coincides with the section of _Knights Next Door_ that I'm
in the middle of reading. (Holy cow - hammered-flat metal bars?!?! I
never knew that!)

Thanks for the reminder. I've seen pictures of the SCA from this time
and again in the early '80s. The difference is significant, but
gradually getting more there - such as the lovely black Elizabethan
court dress - in gorgeous moiré silk. Today, we have the same leap,
and I expect that ten years from now, we'll wince at our efforts but
chuckle for what it represented - earnest effort.

As for the set-in sleeve: when I was on a fast learning curve, having
just joined the SCA in Atlantia AND learning to sew, but having looked
at the Victorian costume bookes in the library over and over again
since I was 12 or so. I decided to attempt a transitional bliaut (yes,
go ahead and grin and maybe giggle. I'll wait. :) It had a pair of
lacing holes on either side of the waist, and detached sleeves, whose
pattern was taken from a knit sleeve. And it had a *perfectly* executed
gore in the middle of the back, and one in the front, too.

If I say so myself, the construction was very solid, even for a newbie
who'd sewn it by machine - felled seams, small grommets judiciously and
carefully covered with thread so no glint of metal showed through (I'd
not heard of the tailor's awl yet), fitted carefully several times -
over a cotton gauze chemise, once curtains for my bed.

I look back at it now, with its tied-on sleeves, lightly pilling light
blue polyesterish fabric, and garish couched gold embroidery floss and
sew-on "topaz" acrylic jewels, and I wince, but I can't throw it out or
give it away. That's partially because no one will take it, and
partially because I was so proud of how it turned out. I got many
compliments on my then-burgeoning sewing abilities by people kindly
forebearing, and I was not wearing the store-bought broomstick skirt
and poet's blouse - and I had Made It Myself. I still love the color,
but though I wince at it, it stays in my garb closet.

Thanks again for the reminder.
Richard R. Hershberger
2005-09-06 15:38:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Margaret N
Eerie - this coincides with the section of _Knights Next Door_ that I'm
in the middle of reading. (Holy cow - hammered-flat metal bars?!?! I
never knew that!)
Thanks for the reminder. I've seen pictures of the SCA from this time
and again in the early '80s. The difference is significant, but
gradually getting more there - such as the lovely black Elizabethan
court dress - in gorgeous moiré silk. Today, we have the same leap,
and I expect that ten years from now, we'll wince at our efforts but
chuckle for what it represented - earnest effort.
I will go out on a limb and suggest that if there is any aspect of what
we do where 1968 practice *doesn't* make us wince, we are doing
something seriously wrong. In heraldry there isn't any one Great Leap
Forward in our understanding of period practice, but almost nothing
from before the mid-1980s is of anything other than historical
interest. Of course we being who we are, historical interest isn't
necessarily a bad thing. Has anyone ever tried to do a historical
recreation of the SCA c. 1968?

In terra pax,
Rouland Carre
Mike Andrews
2005-09-06 15:52:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard R. Hershberger
Has anyone ever tried to do a historical
recreation of the SCA c. 1968?
I think that's a marvelous idea, but suspect that we'd do it badly.

;=), for the humor-impaired.
--
Mike Andrews / Michael Fenwick Barony of Namron, Ansteorra
***@mikea.ath.cx / Amateur Extra radio operator W5EGO
Tired old music Laurel; webBastard; SCAdian since AS XI
Cynthia Virtue
2005-09-06 15:55:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard R. Hershberger
Has anyone ever tried to do a historical
recreation of the SCA c. 1968?
Oooh! I'll bring the elf ears!
--
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent

Yet the best-known, most often referenced extant [medieval] garments we
have *don't* have flat, pointy gore tops. When I do slide lectures on
the Herjolfsnes garments, I frequently point out the flat-topped gores.
-- Robin Netherton
Heather Rose Jones
2005-09-07 02:18:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cynthia Virtue
Post by Richard R. Hershberger
Has anyone ever tried to do a historical
recreation of the SCA c. 1968?
Oooh! I'll bring the elf ears!
Nah, elf ears are _dreadfully_ out-of-period for SCA-1968!

Tangwystyl
--
Heather Rose Jones
***@heatherrosejones.com
<http://heatherrosejones.com>
Mike Andrews
2005-09-07 03:07:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Heather Rose Jones
Post by Cynthia Virtue
Post by Richard R. Hershberger
Has anyone ever tried to do a historical
recreation of the SCA c. 1968?
Oooh! I'll bring the elf ears!
Nah, elf ears are _dreadfully_ out-of-period for SCA-1968!
THat's OK, Tangwystyl; they'll come in again in a few years.
--
Lots of couples say, "We want a baby."

I never heard one say, "We want a teen-ager."
-- Ruth Moore, private communication
Dorothy J Heydt
2005-09-07 03:27:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Heather Rose Jones
Post by Cynthia Virtue
Post by Richard R. Hershberger
Has anyone ever tried to do a historical
recreation of the SCA c. 1968?
Oooh! I'll bring the elf ears!
Nah, elf ears are _dreadfully_ out-of-period for SCA-1968!
Although I did wear my best SCA gown, plus a pair of imitation
*Vulcan* ears, for a "Save Star Trek" demo in AS I or maybe II.

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West Albany, California
PRO DEO ET REGE ***@kithrup.com
Cynthia Virtue
2005-09-07 10:08:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Heather Rose Jones
Nah, elf ears are _dreadfully_ out-of-period for SCA-1968!
Oh, sorry! I'd heard there were elves at the first party, and the
Handbook mentioned "sorceries" so I assumed continuity.
--
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent

"Such virtue hath my pen...." -Shakespeare, Sonnet 81
"I knew this wasn't _my_ pen!" --Cynthia Virtue
Dorothy J Heydt
2005-09-07 16:34:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cynthia Virtue
Post by Heather Rose Jones
Nah, elf ears are _dreadfully_ out-of-period for SCA-1968!
Oh, sorry! I'd heard there were elves at the first party, and the
Handbook mentioned "sorceries" so I assumed continuity.
I don't think there were *elves* at the first party. There were
a number of characters from fantasy fiction, but I think they
were human.

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West Albany, California
PRO DEO ET REGE ***@kithrup.com
David Friedman
2005-09-06 17:32:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard R. Hershberger
Has anyone ever tried to do a historical
recreation of the SCA c. 1968?
I teach a class at Pennsic, part of which is an approximate recreation
of a fighting class c. A.S. IV.
--
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com
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